BGG Review Posted

[pygmaelion]

After a few go-rounds with my zombie slaying friends, I've hammered out my thoughts on this fine offering.

www.boardgamegeek.com/article/5806858

Thanks for a solid game, and if you'd be so kind, straighten me out on the number of times you can use a player ability per round. If I missed it in the rulebook, could you point out a page number?

[Douglas Harvey [TOG]]

Hey pygmaelion, I'm glad you like my game! I'm always psyched to get feedback on the things I make. Thank you so much for the kind words and for taking out the time to write up such an in-depth review, I really appreciate it.

As for the character abilities, they are generally a "use once on your turn only" rule unless it is clearly stated otherwise. That was something I sadly failed to address clearly in the rulebook, assuming that it would be made obvious (which I was wrong about, so I will have to re-word everything in the future). Same goes for the Infected abilities (used only once per turn) unless clearly noted.

In your review you mentioned Dr. Chandler's ability to heal others, and I just wanted to clarify that hers is a "use once on your turn only" example. "Dr. Chandler can heal any player at any time as long as she is not infected. The amount of damage she can heal can be no more than the amount of health she has remaining". Looking back on it, I can clearly see where the confusion is so I will have to update that on future printings. It should be made more obvious that it can only be used at any time DURING Dr. Chandler's turn (ie: before she draws, after she draws, after she misses a hit in combat, etc), and not just any time during the game itself. I might also have to add clarification to the fact that she can only heal ONE character on her turn, NOT including herself (because otherwise she could easily use her own ability to keep herself in top-notch form after losing a battle with a particularly ferocious Zombie). I'll definitely have to work out the kinks with her wording, so thank you for pointing this out to me!

Also, you mentioned how some characters feel overpowered, and that's absolutely true. Some of the stronger characters have abilities that outweigh the abilities of some of the weaker characters; but the trade-off there is that while they are excellent combatants while alive, once they're Infected they can really turn the game around for the worst. The stronger the character is, the more severe their Infected attributes will be. This was done to balance out the characters so that the player who fancies a strong and powerful character at the beginning of the game will end up making things harder for everyone else in the long run if they fall victim to the Zombie horde. Alternately, players who choose to start with a slightly less powerful character can build their abilities with weapons and will not make things QUITE as hard for the others if they happen to become Infected. But alas, any Infected player is bad news, regardless of how powerful they are when alive.

You also said that the luck of the draws is something that detracts you from fully enjoying the game, but that's part of the appeal I tried to make. If a Zombie apocalypse ever came to be, there would never be a permanently set path for anyone standing against the Undead, so the luck and randomization offered by a "good" or "bad" shuffle keeps the game fresh every time you play. Getting the Re-Shuffle card early on and ending up with an extremely unlucky new deck (where all four Countdown cards have been brought to the very top) is just one possible scenario for a large-scale event like this. Who knows, maybe MBI's forces are stronger and faster than our heroes suspected... I was aiming for a "no two games are ever alike" with the randomly shuffled deck gameplay, but if you have any suggestions for a way to lessen the chances of getting a bad deck then by all means let me know!

Another point I'd like to address is the number of players for the game. I noticed you said the game box states it is a 1-4 player game, but all the boxes that were printed clearly had the 1-8 player icon on the right-hand spine of the box. I know that a 1-4 player icon could not have possibly been printed on a box, because honestly I have never actually MADE a 1-4 player icon for a game yet. If for some odd reason your box says that, I'd love to see a picture of it because I have no idea how that could've happened.

Also, the reason I decided not to just release the game with all the goodies in the Survival Kit is based on two things: First, I classify the Survival Kit as more of an "add-on" than an expansion because all of the pieces are completely optional and only add to the game in an aesthetic sense [not counting the 6 exclusive cards]; and Second, because I honestly had not thought of the Survival Kit until after the core game was put together. I realized early on that the lack of an included die and the manual cutting required for the hit chits could potentially be a turn-off (luckily it hasn't been a huge negative factor yet), so I wanted to put together a set of nice pre-punched chits and good dice. Then that blossomed into a full-on set with heavyweight game mats, extra cards, and a nice box to hold the core game and the coming expansions. You can find more information about this set here: www.togentertainment.com//index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=19

All in all, I very much appreciate your review and I'm thrilled that you found the game to be so much fun despite a few small flaws and misunderstandings. Feedback like this is what keeps me on my toes with my wordings and my mechanic issues, so it's always something I look for with each new game I make. I'm only 22 years old, so I still need all the guidance I can get for this little hobby of mine.

Thanks again,
Douglas Harvey

[pygmaelion]

I'm conflicted whether to reply to your post on BGG, or on the TOG forums... So I'm opting for here, and if there's any amending to be done in my review (when I check the card box for what was probably some strange hallucination ), I'll be sure to handle it over on the Geek.

Thanks for taking the time to read the review and give such a well constructed response. Seeing as you took said time, I feel that it warrants a grateful response. While my wording is sometimes poorly chosen, please see the following comments as constructive curiosity, and not as a criticism per se. Additionally, everyone's got their two cents to throw in, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Concerning the Once-Per-Turn abilities:
When we were used the abilities more than once per round that we were obviously abusing them. It never became a serious problem since nobody at the table was looking for a way to exploit an ability that was clearly not intended to be a bottomless bucket of band aids. I'm not sure such a clarification warrants a full reformat of the cards, but a simple cheekily worded F.A.Q would sort it out handily.

Concerning Character Balance:
In our hand full of games, the dice gods smiled upon us, and I suspect that we were better lucky than good on most occasions. We noted almost instantly that Zeigler(sp?) was NOT to be allowed to die! However, with some careful applications of the medic and bodyguard ability, we managed to keep our entire team breathing. I'm certain that with more plays under our belts, we'll get a chance to deal with the infected.

Concerning the Luck of the Deck:
I don't really have a major gripe with getting obliterated by the bomb, but a couple players I regularly play with will announce "Aaaand it didn't matter because the deck beat me...". These are the kind of folks who still cling to the idea that a player making "all the right moves" should always be able to out-play the game.

As it stands, there is no way to see ahead into the deck as to what is coming. You know that there is a Countdown in each quarter of the deck until you hit the reshuffle, at which point you've got no clue.

There's a bit of deck manipulation already in the came with the "Stash It" option for equipment. We tried to figure out how we could use this to leapfrog over a countdown timer, but it's intentionally not made that way.

There are a couple ways to wrangle the deck.
1)An ability that lets a (combat weak) character "Scout ahead" into the deck, and see what's ahead. They could spend a number of zombie headshots to draw that many cards, then shuffle the rest of the deck, put any number of the drawn cards at the bottom, and any number of drawn cards at the top of the deck.

Alternately, they could spend headshots to draw that many cards, pick one as their draw for the turn, and completely reshuffle the remainder with the rest of the deck.

The infected ability would draw cards whenever headshots were spent by uninfected survivors, placing any countdown timers on the table when they were revealed, and reshuffling the rest.

It would prevent outright abuse because it costs headshots that this combat pansy will only be making through luck or the grace of equipment. It would not reduce the size of the deck. The first option doesn't work because it only changes the outcome of "we would've been beaten by the deck into "We still might be beaten by the deck" or "We most certainly won't be beaten by the deck because I put the cure on top and the countdown on the bottom." Still, it's a mechanical starting point.

I have other notions, largely stemming from deck manipulation tricks used in CCGs.

All of that being said, I don't consider Atomic Dispersal a deal breaker. The real detraction was listening to one friend whinge over making all the right moves and still losing. This is a sticking point for some folks. I'd say that it is a thematic element in the game, and that it fits well. I'd have been remiss in not pointing it out for the benefit of readers.

Riddles Yet Left Unsolved:
What's the deal with the Axe? We all looked at it and said "Well, it's equipment... but... Yuck , +1 / -1" . There's probably a reason we didn't yet see (The Dame's ability, perhaps?) in practice. I'll repeat that my friends carefully chose the combat monsters of the game, and I pulled randomly from what was left. The dice were hot, and the danger manageable. Perhaps more plays will reveal the cleverness of this seemingly very limited bit of equipment.

The countdown timers all have the number 3 on them... I realize that it would be nigh impossible after a reshuffle to make the 4 countdown timer cards count down in order, but the Quartet of 3's kinda had me scratching my head. Does this represent the Doomsday clock being set to 3 minutes to midnight? Is there a legendary MBI clock that permanently got stuck at 3 somewhere in the facility? If not, should we be making one? Endicott's not too far from away....

One of the event cards shows dice results as Roman Numerals. Is there a specific reason for this? Does the well chosen font on the event cards just "do' numbers in that way, or was that a purposeful choice? I suppose it does somewhat differentiate that you're rolling a "Hard Result" as opposed to a modified one (which consistently use ordinary numeric characters throughout the rest of the game.



And On to the Next:

I want to make it clear that I think that the creation of an add-on kit is a darned good idea. Do I really need dice and counters? No... I've got tons... and I should be content to play that way. Cheapass games went pretty far assuming everyone had dice and chits. The fact that you included cuttable chits in the base game shows that you're trying to give people as much of what they need to play as you can. I applaud that. Despite the fact that you've given us a fine horse, some of us just can't avoid looking in its mouth.

The option to make the game a $20 purchase with some snazzy components, or to have a good solid game for $10 is nice to have.

I'm personally a little gunshy concerning expansions (having watched Munchkin and Killer Bunnies become games of "Flipping cards for no pay" when they are fully padded out), but as soon as my wallet recovers, I'll be getting the Survival Kit and seeing how it affects the game.



So, with that, I'll cap off this missive by saying that every single game, be it wargame, boardgame, cardgame or ~other~ has a slight learning curve that comes with it.

Games like F.F.G.'s Starcraft had its box opened and closed for the last time ever in 5 hours one night.

In contrast, we all had an enjoyable time of starting off with E.E. and as we play it through, I'll be sure to tell others about it.


I'd be happy to discuss any of the questions above further, and will refrain from revealing my own age. Suffice it to say that I'm old enough that I should have designed and published a game by now .

Thanks again for your reply!

J. Pygmaelion Pigula

[Douglas Harvey [TOG]]

I only posted my reply on both sites just in case there were a few fans of the game that were unaware of either the BGG page or these fancy new TOG forums. Feel free to post responses wherever you find is easiest, because I check both of them regularly (as a moderator here on TOG and as the curious creator watching over his 'baby' on BGG )

Your ideas about a new 'scouting' ability to soothe some of the extreme luck factor in the game has actually inspired me to create a new mechanic that I will implement in either an add-on or an expansion (I like to use both terms as separate meanings even though most people consider them similar). What I'm thinking of adding is a new item card, perhaps a pair of binoculars, that will be abundant in the deck like the First Aid Kits. A player can hold onto one as their unequipped item and use it in a desperate time to spend headshots (I'm also warming to the idea of making the accumulated headshots a form of 'currency' in a way) to draw from the top of the deck and choose a card as their draw for the turn, then shuffling the remaining cards and placing them back into the deck at random spots (just like hiding an item card). Would that be something you'd appreciate as an additional mechanic to the game? Or do you think it would make things too complex for such a small change to the game play?

Also, I'm glad you noticed how useless the axe appears to be! That was intentional, and it's something of a set-up for the first expansion set: Black Ops. It may look like a worthless piece of junk with no use whatsoever because every character's basic unarmed combat modifiers eclipse the abilities of the axe....but I promise you that the item will come in handy.

The artwork on the Countdown cards is not meant to represent anything deeper than an image of a clock. It tickles me to know that the game's theme was enough to make others think there is more to it than there is. But alas, the Countdown is simply a clock to convey the sense of "time running out". I do, however, like your analogy to the Doomsday clock, and maybe I will implement something like that in the future.

And I hate to say that you caught one of my mistakes! The roman numerals in the next of the "Aggressive Assault" Event card was actually just an oversight I made when compiling the card art. The font I used for the descriptions on the cards had its numbers rendered as roman numerals and I spent a lot of time scrutinizing every card to make sure I changed the font for the numbers to a font more easily readable. I missed the Aggressive Assault card, and now my failure has come back to haunt me. However, you are correct in assuming that the die roll's results must match the card's results WITHOUT modification, so perhaps my slip-up works out in the long run.

The add-on kit is meant to (as you said) make the game a little more fancy by adding bits and chits and whatnot. The 6 new game cards might make it seem like a full-on expansion, so in the future I'll be sure to make it clear as to what is an actual game "expansion" and what is just essentially a face-lift to the core game.

I'm glad I've come up with a solid enough game to warrant detailed reviews and kind words and I hope to hear more from you in the future. The full Endicott Epidemic board game is something I really think you'll enjoy because it takes this very small part of the Zombie Apocalypse idea (the fighting/searching/surviving aspect) and magnifies it to nearly epic proportions. Not only will the heroes have to travel to different areas of the town (and even entirely new towns in the expansion sets), but they will have to complete mission-based objectives to unlock items and cure cards, battle more aggressive enemies, avoid the deadly Black Ops squad, and help keep their teammates alive before they succumb to the Zombie infection....all before the EIGHT Countdown cards are revealed. Without the "luck of the shuffle" or "luck of the dice" aspect granted by a full board game, everything becomes much more strategic and intense.

And to further the "franchise" by utilizing my plethora of multi-media talents, there will also be a tie-in novel and an animated feature film starring the characters from the game. That'll flesh it out far beyond being just a "cool, decent game". So anyway, enough of my blabbering! I look forward to hearing from you.


Doug

[pygmaelion]

The idea of making the "Scouting" ability part of equipment is a good one, as it provides a mechanism that any player/character can use if they can get their hands on it. With a frequency equal to the first aid kits, they are likely to come up fairly often (excluding other deck components that might make the main deck 'swim').

The point of it will be to allow you to "manage" the deck, but not "master" it. If you allow players to pull cards, pick one, and ~randomly~ reinsert them into the deck without a shuffle, there needs to be some true randomization in how they are put into the deck. Let's say I have the "Spotting Scope", I activate the item (possibly discard it entirely?), and spend 3 headshots. I pull Coolaid, The Hermit, and a Countdown Timer.

Now, I'm going to take the Hermit... I'm going to randomly put countdown and Coolaid back in the deck... randomly... toward the bottom so I don't get it later. No matter how random the reinsertion into the deck is, that's the only mechanism to count cards. Anyone who can, will, and hence it will not be random.

And if I know that I wont' be seeing them for another 30 cards or so, then the pressure is lifted, knowing that in the very worst case my doom is 30 cards down.

I think there has to be a shuffle built into scouting. You get an immediate lay of the land around you, but while you were peeking from safety, the rest of Endicott was still marching forward toward destruction.

What about:

Remove N Headshots from your Deadpool, place them aside in "Limbo".
look at N cards at the top of the deck, For each Boss Spade in limbo, you may put one of these cards in limbo.
shuffle the deck along with the Limbo pile. Limbo is now empty.
Then shuffle the cards you drew, and place them on top of the deck. Reveal your card for the turn.

(The idea of turning the limbo cards face up, then shuffling them into the face down deck occurred to me... but I'm not sure why I'd want that. I'd have to figure out why it'd make a difference. It imparts a certain bit of incomplete deck knowledge, and might be extended to stashing equipment face up in the library... You know from now on where it is even after a reshuffle, and you can peek at the tops of the cards and go "Oh, well, there's that axe I hid, and Zeigler's gonna find it next round by turn order... good luck, Zeig!")

Thematically, you've skirted around a particularly deadly block of the city. It gives the Zeds a chance to crop up later (in the form of your surrendered headshots). You have abandoned your plan of forcing your way down main street. You're a little more vulnerable from the lack of action (less heads to respawn with), but at least you know some of what's coming if you have to trek back through there.


Mechanically, you've set the deck up for a known number of turns, and even if you don't know precisely what's coming next, you know it's not so bad. After that, you'll have to scout again, or just take things as they come. It will be more beneficial when you've got 3 countdowns out, or are down to the last third of the deck.



Aside from scouting, I played a little solo... Dr Chandler is Uh-May-Zing, and pretty much can't be beaten by anything but a nuke. Her ability to self patch once per round on her turn means she has infinite health.

Other characters I tried...

Dougie - Who had a good run with a shotgun until he ran up against the tank and the dice skunked him out.

The Cop (Sorry, can't recall now that i'm at work) got hold of the handgun, and then got railed by the psycho sicko on card #4 from the top of the deck...


I'll play through a bit more solo, and see if there's anything other interesting situations based on abilities.

[Douglas Harvey [TOG]]

Hey, sorry that it's been a while - I had a very long and excruciatingly busy week/holiday and I'm just recovering from a small stomach bug that incapacitated me yesterday.

I'll work out a scouting mechanic for the game using some of your ideas, that's a definite. However, I'll have to put that project aside for a few weeks because I have so many other things to work on (like getting the board game ready). Thanks for your input, I think a credit in the expansion's rulesheet is in order.

I made a clear note in the expanded rulebook that comes with the Survival Kit about the more powerful abilities (specifically Dr. Chandler's and Lady Stillman's). It basically says "don't cheat, use their powers only once per turn"; and it also explains that in solo play, abilities like those are NOT able to be used, which kind of brings down the game a bit. Perhaps an errata/card exchange program should be implemented where the Dr. Chandler/Lady Stillman cards are replaced with new cards that have more clearly described powers. Chandler's healing power is NOT meant to be used in solo play, for obvious reasons. Maybe we just make it a general rule that she can exchange headshots for health points, but like I said before I don't want to end up making this too complicated.

I think the gameplay of the board game (which has an entirely different combat mechanic for fighting Zombies and other creatures) is much better suited for the character powers. The board game itself is also single-player, but abilities like Chandler's are used different in solo play so that she can't become invincible. I should've forseen the troubles with powers like that, since they are easily abused.